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If your not familiar with him, check out this interview. He's been in the repair and luthiery business for nearly 50 years and is a well respected name in the industry. in a recent post at The Gear Page, he had this to say aboutdifferent caps and their effects on tone: Quote:Caps do not have a tone, they only have a value.... since we do not use "precision" caps in guitars, those values vary... generally + - 5%. This is why one cap sounds differently than the next...
The next thing to consider is how the caps work in the guitar’s passive circuit… it is a “subtractive” element… meaning it “removes” frequencies. Doing nothing to those that remain…
Analogy…say the circuit was a garden hose …. You poke a hole in the hose…. Small hole… a small amount of water escapes…. Large hole… more water can escape… but the water that remains in the hose is not impacted in the least… it just keeps flowing until it finds it’s way out the end…
Regarding “quality of cap”… the water in the hose doesn’t care or know if the hole was poked with a solid gold, diamond encrusted hose poker, or a rusty nail… all the water knows, is, “hole…. This way out.”
So in the circuit… the cap allows higher frequencies to “escape” to ground… Pffftttt…. They’re gone…. Turning the tone control on the amp does not restore them… it only modifies the frequencies that remain, and made it to the amp..
The lager the value of the Capacitor, the more of the high frequencies escape, resulting in a darker tone… if you choose a cap that is within the range of tolerance, but has a slightly higher value, measured in Microfarads, the “tone” will be ever so slightly “darker”. Conversely, if the cap is, still within tolerance, but has a slightly lower value, the tone is subtly “brighter”. It is those subtle variations that create the differences some hear when swapping caps of similar value. Those changes are very subtle, not “in your face”.
Thus it really doesn’t matter if you choose a 3 cent mica, made in China, el cheapo cap, or the very exotic, expensive Auricaps… a hole in the circuit for frequencies to disappear through is just a hole… there cannot be a “high quality” hole, or a POS hole…
Now… for the electrical engineers that just grabbed their keyboards so they could go into a long dissertation as to why I’m wrong…
Sure… I know that the cap has an electrical synoptic influence on other factors.. such as shifting the harmonic resonance of the pickup, for one, and that’s the major factor at that… But…. That is just a “move”…. It is purely mathematical in nature… and again, the quality of the cap has absolutely no bearing on the way the “numbers” are crunched, in the least, only the value of said cap, is considered by the sciences that are in play. Electrons do not know or care if they were “nudged” one way or the other by a cheep whatever, or an expensive one.
So the ONLY consideration you need to address is what value cap to use, not who made the thing, unless just having an “expensive hole” in the circuit is important to ya… it is your guitar and you don’t have to justify anything you do to it, to us. We all respect your decisions.
Now… for those that notice such things… “pop the hood” on one of my “later” guitars and you will see a high quality cap… why? ‘Cause I know when ya plop down a couple a grand for a guitar, you don’t wanna open it up and see a 3 cents cap in there, one you could have gotten from Radio Shack, or other inexpensive “stuff” inside… I don’t cut corners, even if it’s meaningless from the perspective of what a guitar is and what it’s used for.
Ron Kirn You can read his quote in the original thread located here. | |
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A good bit of electrical common sense. Caps are caps! They all filter treble.
WHERE you place them in the signal chain, however makes a difference!
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And he puts some perspective around the issue in this post: Quote:I have been doing "this" a very long time.... and over the years several "realities" have surfaced....
Guys that are less proficient on the guitar tend to be the ones in this never ending "tone quest"... it's always something else that is the reason for their poor "sound". These "guys are looking for a "tool" that will be the "pill" that will make them the guitarist they wanna be... for them, it's the guitar's fault that they are not.... they figure they can just buy something that will produce utopian tone.
Upper tier guitarists, are not so picky, for them the "tone" is more like a fashion statement.... like the color shoes, their hair style, etc., they are just looking for something they "like", but know the audience couldn't give a ratz azz about those subtle nuances...
But that doesn't mean they cannot “look” for a sound THEY like, one they are comfortable with… Hand these musicians a strange guitar and they all do the same thing initially, play a few notes, adjust the tone controls, a few more notes, …. Readjust…. They are looking for a sonic “comfort zone”. They just tend to NOT blame the “Tone” for anything . . . they can and do, just pick up anything and play the shi* out of it… ouch!!!! but...very true. Edited by user Friday, March 23, 2012 1:22:56 PM(UTC)
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So true about the tone quest-- more time spent on the fingers & music, & less on the gear = progress. This is one reason I prefer the simplicity of guitar-cable-amp with no pedals to mess with. But sucky equipment sure can suck, while good gear can be inspiring. I used to play classical piano & playing a good Steinway was like a revelation. It wouldn't fix bad notes or poor musicianship, but it sure made good notes sound better.
One more thing: I find it supremely ironic that Mr. Kirm uses "high quality" caps inspite of his apparent debunking of the need! Not quite putting his money where his mouth is IMO.
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I can think of only two reasons I'd put a ceramic disk into a guitar: (1) I'm messing around with a circuit, & that's what's handy in the parts box, or (2) I'm restoring an old instrument & that's what the owner wants. (I've seen too many that're chipped or even broken in half, bouncing around in there.) Otherwise, it's a Mylar greenie at minimum -- a Mullard "tropical fish" C280 would cost me less than $1, so what's the harm in looking cool?
But I don't fool myself that it'll magically create "classic tone," & I certainly don't allow customers to believe it.
I can imagine that I might someday find a guitar that I totally love playing, except that there's something not-quite-right about the plugged-in tone. In that case, I might consider gutting it out & running through a bunch of pickups.
...but, again, I won't believe that it'll somehow make me a great guitarist.
And, yah, it's certainly true that having good-sounding gear can be a highly effective kick in the butt. For years & years, I practiced through cheap transistor crapbox amps at low volumes with no effects. In my 30s, I finally got a half-decent amp, & it's as if the world opened up to me. Licks I'd been diligently learning, more from the sound in my head than what was coming out the speaker, suddenly became easy & fluid.
When I take on a student, I press them to buy an acceptable guitar & have it set up properly. Though I initially learned on a truly awful little no-name acoustic from Sears, & then a 1960s electric almost as bad, I've always been a little obsessive -- something I can't pass along to a student. | All a writer really needs is a blank page and a bad attitude. |
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Originally Posted by: WichitaJazz  So true about the tone quest-- more time spent on the fingers & music, & less on the gear = progress. This is one reason I prefer the simplicity of guitar-cable-amp with no pedals to mess with. But sucky equipment sure can suck, while good gear can be inspiring. I used to play classical piano & playing a good Steinway was like a revelation. It wouldn't fix bad notes or poor musicianship, but it sure made good notes sound better.
One more thing: I find it supremely ironic that Mr. Kirm uses "high quality" caps inspite of his apparent debunking of the need! Not quite putting his money where his mouth is IMO. He says he does it because that's what the customers want. At least he's upfront about it and not selling it as some huge upgrade. I like his "upfrontness". I participated in that thread as well and actually learned something...well maybe. I always looked at a guitars tone circuit as an RC low pass filter. Well, a guy in that thread has an alternate theory that a tone circuit is closer to a Zobel network functionally rather than shunting frequency to ground, the pot is mixing between 2 different resonant frequency peaks. | |
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I agree on the caps. I use Disk Caps all the time on my Loaded pick guards. Fender used a .1uf Disk cap on all their Strats for many years. I just tested some pickups with disks and with Mylar amp Caps. I couldn't tell any difference. I could tell differences in Cap values. Fender uses a .1uf Disk Cap on the signature Eric Johnson Model. I thought that ironic. Have a look. http://support.fender.co...aster/011-7702A_SISD.pdfGood Luck, T | |
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Originally Posted by: big_teee I agree on the caps. I use Disk Caps all the time on my Loaded pick guards. Fender used a .1uf Disk cap on all their Strats for many years. I just tested some pickups with disks and with Mylar amp Caps. I couldn't tell any difference. I could tell differences in Cap values. Fender uses a .1uf Disk Cap on the signature Eric Johnson Model. I thought that ironic. Have a look. http://support.fender.co...aster/011-7702A_SISD.pdfGood Luck, T Interesting, but HOW is it ironic Terry?
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Originally Posted by: Axeman69 Originally Posted by: big_teee I agree on the caps. I use Disk Caps all the time on my Loaded pick guards. Fender used a .1uf Disk cap on all their Strats for many years. I just tested some pickups with disks and with Mylar amp Caps. I couldn't tell any difference. I could tell differences in Cap values. Fender uses a .1uf Disk Cap on the signature Eric Johnson Model. I thought that ironic. Have a look. http://support.fender.co...aster/011-7702A_SISD.pdfGood Luck, T Interesting, but HOW is it ironic Terry? To me, maybe no one else, but E.J. is known for his pickiness. And, they use the cheapest Cap available on his Sig Model. I found that to be ironic, or Maybe E.J. Just knew something that others didn't. T | |
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Originally Posted by: big_teee Originally Posted by: Axeman69 Originally Posted by: big_teee I agree on the caps. I use Disk Caps all the time on my Loaded pick guards. Fender used a .1uf Disk cap on all their Strats for many years. I just tested some pickups with disks and with Mylar amp Caps. I couldn't tell any difference. I could tell differences in Cap values. Fender uses a .1uf Disk Cap on the signature Eric Johnson Model. I thought that ironic. Have a look. http://support.fender.co...aster/011-7702A_SISD.pdfGood Luck, T Interesting, but HOW is it ironic Terry? To me, maybe no one else, but E.J. is known for his pickiness. And, they use the cheapest Cap available on his Sig Model. I found that to be ironic, or Maybe E.J. Just knew something that others didn't. T maybe! 
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