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Reverb format - from the mixer or from a pedal?
jacknarcotta
#1 Posted : Thursday, February 16, 2012 1:02:28 PM(UTC)
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I posted this over on TDPRI's "The Stomp Box" forum but wanted to make sure I got the exceptionally well-qualified people here on FG to weigh in, too. Cool

I have a bit of a dilemma that I'd like to ask the community for assistance in thinking-out or resolving.

Question: using a direct-to-mixer/PA device without on-board reverb, would you recommend using mixer reverb (from a small-format mixer with digital FX, for example) or would you use a dedicated reverb pedal placed after the "amp"?

As a proponent of direct recording and long-time user of my trusty SansAmp Tri-A.C. for recording, a challenge with these "simplified" devices (compared to a MFX unit from Line 6, or Digitech, or Zoom, etc.) is a lack of reverb. This is, of course, easily rectified when I'm recording. But it's a concern now that I'm gigging with this same preamp, and my tone as of late feels far, far too "dry".

I love reverb. A lot. Especially "room" or "small room" reverb. I'm not crazy about drowning in "cavernous", "parking garage" or swimming in the "surf". I simply love what a well-configured "room" 'verb can do to mitigate the inherent dryness of using a direct-to-PA/mixer device in a live situation.

Is there a direction I should go in to add 'verb to my signal path (as below)? I understand when I'm gigging each room has it's own reverb, but I'd like to make my great sounding SansAmp sound just that much more "live".

Signal chain, in order from guitar to PA:

JoeMeek Floor Q compressor
Boss BF-2 flanger
Fulltone OCD
SansAmp Tri-A.C.
MXR Carbon Copy
Boss DD-5
Seymour Duncan Shape Shifter (tremolo)
DI box du jour (basically to convert 1/4" to XLR)
PA or split between PA and my Mackie powered speaker
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Will Chen
#2 Posted : Thursday, February 16, 2012 4:03:30 PM(UTC)

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Will Chen
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For what its worth, I never use reverb live. Just a delay set for around 300ms with 1 to 3 repeats mixed pretty low. Whatever the sound man does reverb-wise at the board is his/her call.
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jgauker
#3 Posted : Thursday, February 16, 2012 4:29:36 PM(UTC)
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I am with Will on this one. I don't use reverb when playing live with an amp, but I have noticed that the patches on the HD500 sound better with just a slight touch of reverb. When performing live, we use some reverb on the vocals and drums but just a touch too much starts to muddy the sound in most settings. I much prefer to use Delay. It seems to have less detrimental effect on the signal.
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BigT
#4 Posted : Thursday, February 16, 2012 9:23:40 PM(UTC)
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Also very much with Will on this. I used a delay when gigging, but I tend to get pretty stupid with the 'verb at home on my own. When recording, I try to do everything in the software, playing a straight up guitar tone into the mix.
jacknarcotta
#5 Posted : Friday, February 17, 2012 3:12:01 PM(UTC)
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Thanks for the insights and opinion, gents. I think the struggle really is more about that I can't really cart around my rig to different venues and somehow capture their reverb in a bottle that I can take home and release into my setup. ;)

I'll take all your advice to heart and try leaving on my Carbon Copy analog delay for some ambience. Thanks!
Tony Raven
#6 Posted : Friday, February 17, 2012 10:40:36 PM(UTC)
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With some practice, you can do a pretty good job of mapping reverb. The human ear is actually sated pretty easily, so if you can get the crisp early tones & the warm late tones, you could probably copy the effects of a room adequately. For instance, record a live guitar direct-to-board, & another track from a microphone from the front of the stage or back of house or whatever. You tweak the "clean" track until it sounds like the guitar in the group mix.

There's good hardware out there that's not overly expensive. Keep an eye open for something like a used MultiVerb from ART (Applied Research & Technology):
http://www.artproaudio.com/
They've backed away from effects to focus on preamps, but they've tried everythig from guitar amps to some really spiffy realtime spectrum analyzers. I recommend them because I have an old ART M-1 monaural digital reverb that continues to blow my socks off with its presets, anything from small room to plate to big dark theater.

If you don't want to mess around with a box, consider software. This list is two years old, but gives you a pretty good idea of what's out there:
http://getthatprosound.com/the-...rb-plugins-in-the-world/
For little or nothing, you can readily find some really cool-sounding toys.
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Aside from all that, I have to agree with the guys who've weighed in. When in a live setting, reverb can be added to soften a sound, like when you've got two or more guitars fighting for the same audio space, or a strummed acoustic that's stepping all over the singer. Adding reverb keeps the sound there, simply dispersing it, as opposed to turning it down.

(I once worked with a big folk-rock band that had THREE acoustic guitars AND an electric AND a bass, & the first four were always power-chording away until I just wanted to "accidentally" dump 'em ALL into board echo cranked to 10. Laugh)
Swamp Yankee
#7 Posted : Saturday, February 18, 2012 3:00:53 AM(UTC)
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I agree with the guys above about using a bit of delay live rather than reverb. One exception recently was when playing with a slightly scattered quartet - a bit of verb filled in around some of our mistakes. Also, I've used live reverb when the other guitarist is playing acoustic - it seems to be a nice contrast.

I think a recording engineer would tell you to play dry into the mixing board, and let the mixdown engineer add reverb as needed. They usually have higher quality effects available, and can apply the same reverb to all of the tracks at once - which helps clarify the sound (vs several mismatching reverbs - sounds like grade school trip to a cavern).

A live sound engineer might not have a decent reverb unit to use, or may not add the amount of reverb that you desire, but I'd still go with just delay, and let him work it out. Or bribe him. Whatever.

jacknarcotta
#8 Posted : Monday, February 27, 2012 9:10:49 AM(UTC)
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For what it's worth, and to close the loop somewhat on this topic, a bit of analog delay (about 1/2 way up the dial on my MXR Carbon Copy, which I think is around 350 ms) did the trick. I didn't miss the reverb at all. And that's a big admission for this reverb junkie. Cool
1 user thanked jacknarcotta for this useful post.
BigT on 2/27/2012(UTC)
tjnugent
#9 Posted : Friday, March 02, 2012 8:44:42 AM(UTC)
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I am with Will and the others. I too like to have my Flashback Delay set to 1 or 2 repeats set in the Dynamic mode. Dynamic is basically ducking, where the repeat signal is below the level of the dry signal while you are playing and it rises when you stop playing. This puts a tail to the end of what I am playing. This also gives you somewhat the sound of the tail end of Reverb without getting muddy. This pretty much takes care of my Reverb needs, though I do have a Hall of Fame Reverb pedal. This helps widen my sound but I keep it mixed low and fairly tight. Just enough to widen my sound a hair.

Giving your sound man total control of the FOH mix allows him/her to take care of any deficiencies in the room. Just remember, you are behind the speakers and can't hear what is going on out there. That is if you have a good set of monitors and someone who knows how to use them.

The Reverb Pedal, or amp Reverb should be for your own pleasure and not so much to sculpt the FOH sound. Saying that, it is important to use it sparingly or to use a delay that captures the tail of what is perceived as Reverb. Something I have grown to dislike is spring Reverb overkill. I hear a lot of clips these days where the Reverb is booming and the tone of the wet signal is not set low enough. I think that is why people have started using a delay on all the time. I know I do that to some extent, but it is mixed for lower wet signal.

Cheers,

TJ
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PODPERSON
#10 Posted : Wednesday, March 14, 2012 8:22:09 PM(UTC)
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Sometimes I enjoy using a good reverb more than a repeating delay but it must be a reverb that does not wash the tone out or get too cavernous and springy. That surf thing or the cha-rang of springs, not so much my thing. One reason I left amp reverb years ago but now in the uses of my heavy fusion work I find reverb can me more useful and musical than delays.

I find at the moment pending my new POD500 that is on the way; I really like the Lexicon chip reverbs in my Hardwire Reverb RV-7. I got that unit for like $50 on a sale price goof up and it has been a great reverb. I do not care much for mimic of a spring which never floated my boat that much anyway. But it's plate, and hall are fantastic. Gives me a deep long throw spaceous presence to my tone or a tight slight ambiance without losing my sense of gain or drive, very Jeff Beckish fusion in nature.

Delays can loose control of your tone and attack unless they are laid back or set to dynamic response, or they are of course the core of the tone itself (Edge). Less is more is always the moto. Being able to kick that reverb on for solos and such just adds that something which makes the passage stand out as really something.

For a pedal, I dig that Hardwire. We'll see how the HD500 goes but I plan an entirely different rig for it to take advantage of its modelling potential, these units are wasted and rendered to half their ability trying to run them into a guitar amp. I love my tube amp and my pedal board but I am starting to realize I may just have to build two different animals to really enjoy the magic forest.
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